Why the sky is not falling. (or: perspective, please)

[myzmak]

A few days ago I wrote a post I was pretty fond of (featured a big Roseanne Barr picture....) but as it was responding to some troll-ish comments it got deleted in the cleanup. Which is fair enough. There is too much pure 'bickering' (as opposed to genuine discussion or real debate) that is happening on this forum with all the recent traffic generated by the reviews.

One of the things I was trying to do in the Roseanne post, though, was to remind folks to keep things in perspective. A point I have made in a few scattered replies here and there but that I thought I would consolidate into one specific thread (so some of this has been posted elsewhere before, some is new)

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to provoke bickering or silly arguments here. If you troll on this thread, I'm not gonna reply. I may not reply to even non-trolling posts. The purpose of this is to just remind people to take some perspective on the recent F80 reviews. Put my thoughts out there so, maybe, some folks think about them.

Specifically, many of what I call the 'sky is falling' comments seem to be grounded the idea that the fact that current reviews of the F80 do not say the car is perfect. They (gasp!) have criticisms. Often they don't like the sound. Sometimes it is steering. Sometimes it is a comment about the 'clinical' nature of the car or a suggestion that it lacks animalistic passion.

With a few comparisons coming in (in which, say, the F80 comes second as a sports car to a 23,000 MORE expensive 911 S sports car) the concern in some is growing.

The concern seems to be that this F80 is getting a poor reception. Poor relative to what? Well, the E90.

Anyone who has spent any time on this forum knows the E90 has not just near, but actual verified and cemented deity status among many. It would almost be easier to convert a vegan, peacenik Hare Krishna type to become a red meat eating mercenary in the Foreign Legion than it would to convince many E90 owners that their car could ever be surpassed. And I don't criticize them for that for one second. By all accounts, it is a fantastic car. Looks great, drives great, sounds great, etc. And in head to heads, it almost always won. It earned its devotees.

.....but 'twas not always thus.

In fact, when one actually looks at the past....it looks very familiar. What you see is that the E90 was given a very similar initial reception to the F80...in some cases, worse.

For instance, Top Gear (who did an excellent long form review of the F80, scanned and posted here: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=988763) gave the F80 a 9/10 in their first drive review (http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/b...drive-2014-5-8) Solid, yes. In fact, better than the initial review of the E90...which they gave an 8/10. (http://www.topgear.com/uk/bmw/m3/verdict)

What about the others?

Well, Evo gave the E90 the same 4.5/5 review it gave the F80.
(http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evoc...29/bmw_m3.html)

And it had some criticisms of the E90 which sound...familiar?

With the windows up, the noise is enjoyable but surprisingly muted. It grows in urgency as the revs build quickly, but it's not as vivid or animalistic as I was expecting.
...
There's still a softness to the M3's initial steering response. It's not understeer ...although BMW says it has set the car up to do so very slightly at the limit; rather it's a lack of feel for the first degree or so of lock. It's similar to the E46 M3 in this respect, and though a more intimate sense of connection with the front wheels would be welcome during that crucial initial phase, there is feel and grip to be found once you get the nose loaded and a little more steering angle applied. It takes faith to find it, but once there the M3 is clearly more talkative.

Autoweek made clear they didn't think the steering on the E90 was as good as the E46 (http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../70706014/1065):

For all this, though, the M3 is not quite as tactile in its actions as the car it replaces. The speed-sensitive rack-and-pinion steering, which also offers normal and sport modes, is light for a car boasting such performance, giving the impression of being a tad vague. Sport mode reduces the amount of assist throughout the speed range (without changing the steering ratio la BMW's active steering) to provide more steering feel. Still, we'd like a bit more weight. It is only a small factor, but it does detract from the overall driving experience.

Pistonheads were even more critical (http://www.pistonheads.com/roadtests...?c=100&i=16457) :

It's when the road changes on the other side of the mountain that things aren't quite so impressive. The road is tighter now, with more corners that are less predictable in their curvature and often blind. It exposes the new cars biggest flaw - the steering, something that was never the strong point of the previous car either. It's light (even in 'sport' setting let alone 'normal') and after a numb region around the straight-ahead becomes very quick without building any reassuring weight. Most of all though it's remote from what the wheels are doing. Consequently, on a twisting road such as this, you're always circumspect about your turn-in speed and often find yourself steering in two chunks on the entry to a corner to try and inform yourself of what's going on down at the tyres. Bottom line: it's competent and quick, but you just know in a Porsche Cayman you'd have a huge grin plastered all over your face on a road like this, and in the new M3, you just don't.

...

However, as a tool to whittle away at your lap time, the new M3 is a little less convincing. It's the small, subtle stuff once again: the remote steering; the LSD that feels a little slower to react than the old car; the lack of razor aggression in the engines mid range. Altogether, they slightly but decisively blunt the experience in a playground such as this.

...

It seems certain that many M3 buyers will find this new car a superb companion and that any thoughts are in the distinct minority when they contain phrases about steering feel and driver feedback. Such things increasingly have little value in a marketplace obsessed with power.

But instead of relinquishing the keys with that gripping, longing, sadness in my gut that you'd assume would be there having driven the new M3, I find myself oddly detached from it. That there really is room for a CSL is not in doubt and my bet is it won't be long in coming from what was and wasn't said on the launch. Whereas the old CSL required plenty of in-depth fettling to extract that extra edge from an already focused package, it seems the positioning of this new car leaves a much easier gap in which to place a hardcore version.

Contrived, maybe; an exciting prospect, definitely. But in the meantime, perhaps just a little of the M3 magic has been lost

I mean, ouch, right?

Other such mild criticisms came from Auto Car ('mighty' though not as thrilling as the E46 - http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/bmw/m3-2007-2013) and Edmunds, who again complained about the less-tactile steering (http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/m3/2008/road-test.html).

Even when doing the F80 review, the guy from the Telegraph had to make a point of saying how much he still dislikes the E90's sound. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...M3-review.html)

What? Complain about that sound? Sacrilege! One would no sooner complain about the Hallelujah Chorus being sung by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir...but he did.

Heavy stuff.

And look at how brutal Automobile Mag was (http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_sh...mw_m3_debut/):

The biggest letdown - and it's a huge one - is the steering. Whereas other 3-series (and all previous M3s) read the road surface to your fingertips, the M3 is frustratingly numb on center. It transmits only the largest of messages, and effort is too light and doesn't build naturally. The ratio is wonderfully quick but, to add insult to injury, the M3's turning radius feels vastly larger than any other 3-series.

...

The original M3 was a track-ready, high-strung performer that made no excuses in its performance. As fun in a 15-mph school zone as it was at ten-tenths on a race track, it dominated everything that came its way. And while it's likely that the new M3 is faster around the Nordschleife than its competitors, it's lost a good bit of the driver involvement that has made previous Ms legends.

At the end of the day, we don't just expect fast lap times from an M3, we expect it to put a big smile on our faces. And this time around, the smiles just aren't as big.

Wowza. Led to serious angst on the M3/E90 forum: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72800 and http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84607


The New York Times summed up the existential angst in the M3 community at the time thusly (http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2007...blogs&_r=0):

Kind of sounds like the bean counters have turned the M3 into an AMG: all big engine and great numbers and a drive that's too refined.

My friend Jared, who's had far more track time than I'll ever see, is more harsh. 'Haven'tt driven the new iteration', he wrote in an e-mail. 'BMW hasn't made a genuine M3 since the E36. Motorsport means fleet, not just fast, and certainly not fat. Americans want fat, obviously'; (He's referring to the fact that 50 percent of M3s will be sold in America when it goes on sale next spring.)

Jared also thinks the M3 has been on a downward slide since the E30, when it was a homologation special built to square up against the Ford Sierra Cosworth and the Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16 in the World Touring Car Championship; when its sole purpose was to satisfy racing regulations and not to be profitable, i.e., the good ole days.

Well, you'll say, sure there were a few nervous nellies at the outset, but over time, it was always clear it was the best; head and shoulders above the rest, right?

Wrong.

Here it is being compared to a 2011 Ford Mustang. And I'm not gonna mustang bash, but I think more than a few E90 devotees would be surprised to read that the M3 won by an "onionskin margin". (http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/co...m3_comparison/)

(for those who don't cook, onionskins are thin, not thick. like really thin. Like if you were buying rubbers, these would be the ones you want for extra sensitivity...)

And sometimes it lost too. For instance, the GTS was, by all accounts, the most insanely refined version of the M3. But when Clarkson compared it to the C63 Black, he preferred the Merc. (http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/jer...gts-2012-03-16)

(....and before you start, forget with the Clarkson bashing. Sure, he is a buffoon, but he is the most highly paid car reviewer in history for a reason. Much of it is entertainment, but I expect he does know something about something...at least as much as a bunch of yahoos spending time on an interweb forum like us, anyway)

....and when the LCI W204 C63 came out, an Autocar review preferred that car to the E9X.

It also lost on Edmunds to a CTS-V

And (again Edmunds) to a C07 Z51 (the words "ass-whipping at the track" were used....that smarts.)

http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/cor...son-test3.html

And it also came second to a Porsche Boxter.
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...rst_place.html

....a boxter. Those of you who dismiss some cars as "girly" or for the ladies who lunch, take notice.

And it didn't do that well in a 4 way race with a GT-R, Lotus Evora and Cayman S, with the reviewer first saying this (heh)

In M Dynamic mode, the M3 can dance across any apex, but for the full tire-smoke program DSC should be deactivated completely. Despite its dynamic talents, the on-demand slidemeister disappoints in the EfficientDynamics department, with less-than-stellar fuel economy. Its message is all about high-performance premium luxury and not so much about contemporary sportiness, and it really would benefit from the turbocharged six-cylinder engine that BMW is readying for the next generation.

....and ultimately this:

For those who are willing to accept iffy residuals and a hopeless dealer network, though, the Lotus is the most compelling choice. It has more soul than the BMW and the Porsche but not that much less substance. It guarantees a highly competent, truly entertaining, and totally involving driving experience. It is different with a twist, British without the usual quirkiness, and offers the intriguing promise of a potentially up-and-coming brand. Numerically and factually, the BMW M3 and the Porsche Cayman R have a lot going for them, but right now, I'd rather wait for their follow-ups, which are due in 2013 and 2012, respectively.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...rformance.html

Edit:

Here is an old m3post thread indicating it lost in a Road and Track 4 way race with a C63, RS4 and Lexus
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141597

(the original R&T article is hiding from me at the moment, but the comments seem to indicate the lack of torque was a specific concern with the E9X.)

edit:
Apparently CNET also chose the old C63 over the old M3

http://www.benzblogger.com/2008/10/c...vs-bmw-m3.html

(again, original article hiding right now but....)

[edit]....and here Motortrend put the E90 against a 5.0 Mustang on the track, had the E90 win by less than a 10th of a second and called it a "huge win" for the mustang.

Edit: and just to keep things rolling, here is way way way back machine comparison in which the E46 was dominated by a freaking Audi! (the E90, of course, being the last car to ruin the ///M brand and philosophy according to the E46 crowd who thought their car was bullet proof. Anyone see a pattern here? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?)

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests

But, sure, the E90 won most tests. What did that do? It made the competition better. It might have made them so much better that, while the F80 will probably still win most tests, it might lose a few. (and not just silly ones to much more expensive 2 seater sports cars in a different class, or ones that are 99% based on 'sound', but real ones against its competitors - new C63s, new RS5s, ATS-V, etc)

But: the fact that the other guys are getting better is not the same thing as saying BMW is getting worse. As a consumer, I like more competition for my hard earned dollars.

Who wouldn't?

myzmak out.

<mike drop, walk off, etc>

[GregW / Oregon]

Good post!

[Jockey]

[Lups]

And that's why I like you.

[M8 JTD]

Superb post!

[LwaLt]

Bravo!

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by Lups

And that's why I like you.

I assumed it was for my sweet dancing moves, but I'll take this too.

(and thanks. wanted to consolidate my past ramblings, hope it is somewhat clear above)

[ake]

Stunning post!
Thanks for the effort putting this together. It sure raised some thoughts...

[Oakleyguy]

Nicely done! People have short memories, ha!

[M4TW]

[Money2536]

Great post!

I've made an interesting observation on the forum recently. My signature and avatar don't indicate that I own or have owned a BMW. I have received a rather strong unwanted vibe on the forum that I never noticed when I had a photo of my M3 in my signature. If I made a contradictory post in the past, I wouldn't get much push back. Posting something without indication of ownership, and many are quick to jump on words typed into this forum.

It seems the vast majority of the BMW crowd is very proud and relunctant to admit other cars exist. Even when those cars are new BMWs.

By the way, I hate my S4. Does that make me cool again?

[M3guy3]

i have never been one to buy cars based off lap times or car reviews. although i do look at the reviews for fun.

I think overall is not possible for a BMW to release a car thats going to get a bad review. instead people are just going to dislike certain things.

IMO i haven't been to impressed with the reviews. even though they are good. the GTR also gets great reviews, but do i want one? not really.

I think the M4 is going to do great for BMW and the people who want one.

[Milban]

Your post will be referenced often, very high quality!

[M4TW]

Originally Posted by Money2536

By the way, I hate my S4. Does that make me cool again?

Say three hail M3's and don't wash your S4 for a week and all will be forgiven my son.

[IMrMark]

haha I was getting bit by a lot of the negativity and "OH LAWL - STUPID" that seemed to be coming up and up over the last month... as a newcomer to the community, was feeling like maybe this hadn't been such a good idea overall. Posts like this from decent people who are actually looking to build up, not look down, restores my faith a bit! Thanks!

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by M4TW

Say three hail M3's and don't wash your S4 for a week and all will be forgiven my son.

...and thus the Church of the F8X has its first ordained priest.

In 7 years, you can be in charge of excommunicating anyone who questions the ONE TRUE ///M CAR or dares to heretically suggest that the false-prophet 6th Gen M3 could ever compete.

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by myzmak

...and thus the Church of the F8X has its first ordained priest.

In 7 years, you can be in charge of excommunicating anyone who questions the ONE TRUE ///M CAR or dares to heretically suggest that the false-prophet 6th Gen M3 could ever compete.

those 4 banger M3s .

[jzmundy]

This should be a sticky.

[bmwm4f82]

Very good post! I had an 2008 e92 until one year ago, and the plan was to,let it age and get into the new M4 as soon as it came out. However, it got stolen 1 year ago, and thanks to insurance and good deal I stepped into an M6 as a temporary solution. Big mistake! I have been so eager to dump the M6 since I got it. I sold it to the dealer as trade in already last week and I am driving a 2014 320 touring diesel as a free loaner until in about 8 weeks, the M4 will be here!

The e92 was great, but I do not want a car to be older than 5 to 6 years, so I buy new cars then and then. What was available now is the M4, and other competitors. I chose the M4. The E92 is no longer for sale, and the models out there will age and fall in value and get tuned by the fast and furious crowd as time goes on.

As some reporter wrote, the king is dead, long live the king!

Or you can choose to "cling tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology".

That is not my choice.

[jbraslins]

[nonagon]

Post of the week!

[Kuwen]

Superb post, thank up for compiling this.